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leiko  
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 More options Mar 11, 4:45 am
Newsgroups: sci.math
From: leiko <leikomats...@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2010 20:45:24 -0800 (PST)
Local: Thurs, Mar 11 2010 4:45 am
Subject: completion
Is the completion of a noetherian domain at a a prime P also a domain?
If so, could someone give me a proof of this?
Thanks

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Arturo Magidin  
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 More options Mar 11, 5:52 pm
Newsgroups: sci.math
From: Arturo Magidin <magi...@member.ams.org>
Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 09:52:18 -0800 (PST)
Local: Thurs, Mar 11 2010 5:52 pm
Subject: Re: completion
On Mar 10, 10:45 pm, leiko <leikomats...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Is the completion of a noetherian domain at a a prime P also a domain?
> If so, could someone give me a proof of this?
> Thanks

What I understand is the "completion of R at the ideal J" is the
inverse limit of the rings R/J^n, with n=1, 2, ... etc.

That is, the subring of the product Prod(R/J^n), n=1,2,3,...,
consisting of all coherent sequences, (a_1, a_2, ..., a_n,...) where
a_{n+1}=a_n (mod J^n); if we think of a_i as elements of R, then we
have (a_1,a_2,...) = (b_1,b_2,...) if and only if b_i = a_i (mod P^i).

Assuming this is what you mean, (a_1,a_2,...)=0 if and only if a_i is
in P^i for all i.

Now, the argument below is done thinking about the p-adic numbers. I
am using:

Lemma: Let R be a commutative ring, let P be a prime ideal, and let m
be a positive integer. Let a and b be elements of R. Suppose that a
lies in P^m but not in P^{m+1} and b lies in P^n but not in P^{n+1};
then ab lies in P^{n+m} but not in P^{n+m+1}.

I think this holds in arbitrary rings (it is certainly true in the
integers), but I could certainly be wrong. If I am, sorry for wasting
your time.

Suppose that (a_1,a_2,...)(b_1,b_2,..) = 0. If a_1 is not in P, then
a_i is not in P for all i, hence the fact that a_ib_i is in P^i forces
b_i to be in P^i, so (b_1,b_2,...) = 0.

If a_1 is in P, but (a_1,a_2,...) =/=0, then there exists a least k,
k>0, such that a_k is in P^k but a_{k+1} is not in P^{k+1}; in
particular, a_{k+m} is in P^k but not in P^{k+1} for all m>0.

Let m>0. Since a_{k+m}b_{k+m} lies in P^m, but a_{k+m} lies in P^k but
not in P^{k+1}, then b_{k+m} must lie in P^m. If b_{k+m} is not 0, let
t be the largest positive integer such that b lies in P^{m+t}. I claim
that t>=k. For if t<k, then for any s>0 we know that b_{k+m+s} = b_{k
+m} (mod P^{k+m}), and therefore b_{k+m+s} lies in P^{m+t} but not in
P^{m+t+1}. Thus, a_{k+m+s}b_{k+m+s} lies in P^{k}P^{m+t}=P^{k+m+t} but
not in P^{k+m+t+1}. However, we know that a_{k+m+s}b_{k+m+s} lies in
P^{k+m+s}, so picking s>t yields a contradiction. Thus, t>=k, hence
b_{k+m} lies in P^{k+m} for all m>0, and this means that (b_1,b_2,...)
= 0.

if b_{k+m} = 0, but some b_{k+m+t}, t>0, is nonzero, repeat the above
argument there. (If all b_{k+m+t} = 0, there is nothing to do, of
course).

Thus, if the product is 0, and (a_1,a_2,...) =/=0, then (b_1,b_2,...)
= 0, so the completion is a domain. (Modulo the lemma)

--
Arturo Magidin


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leiko  
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 More options Mar 11, 6:12 pm
Newsgroups: sci.math
From: leiko <leikomats...@gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 10:12:53 -0800 (PST)
Local: Thurs, Mar 11 2010 6:12 pm
Subject: Re: completion
On Mar 11, 11:52 am, Arturo Magidin <magi...@member.ams.org> wrote:

Thanks a lot.
I believe the lemma; however I could be even more wrong than you. I
was also concerned about this other fact which I am not sure of: In a
Noetherian ring, is the infinite intersection of powers P^n of a prime
P equal to 0?
I mgiht make a different psot with these two questions and maybe
someone will correct these facts if they are wrong or confirm that
they are right.

Thanks for the proof again..I had managed to show that x^ in the
completion is not a zero divisor for any x, but that was not enough to
conclude that the completion is not a domain, since Eisenbud has a
counterexample: A completion of a domain at a nonprime ideal which is
a nondomain (pages 187-188).


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Arturo Magidin  
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 More options Mar 11, 9:40 pm
Newsgroups: sci.math
From: Arturo Magidin <magi...@member.ams.org>
Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 13:40:39 -0800 (PST)
Local: Thurs, Mar 11 2010 9:40 pm
Subject: Re: completion
On Mar 11, 12:12 pm, leiko <leikomats...@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Mar 11, 11:52 am, Arturo Magidin <magi...@member.ams.org> wrote:

Alas:

> > Lemma: Let R be a commutative ring, let P be a prime ideal, and let m
> > be a positive integer. Let a and b be elements of R. Suppose that a
> > lies in P^m but not in P^{m+1} and b lies in P^n but not in P^{n+1};
> > then ab lies in P^{n+m} but not in P^{n+m+1}.

is false as stated; it's true in a PID, but false even in Principal
Ideal Rings (take R = Z/36Z, P=(2), and a=b=2; then a,b are in P-P^2,
but ab is in P^3 because P^3=P^2). I don't know what happens if P^n+1
is properly contained in P^n for all n, or if we have a domain.

--
Arturo Magidin


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Arturo Magidin  
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 More options Mar 12, 4:53 pm
Newsgroups: sci.math
From: Arturo Magidin <magi...@member.ams.org>
Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2010 08:53:22 -0800 (PST)
Local: Fri, Mar 12 2010 4:53 pm
Subject: Re: completion
On Mar 11, 3:40 pm, Arturo Magidin <magi...@member.ams.org> wrote:

> On Mar 11, 12:12 pm, leiko <leikomats...@gmail.com> wrote:

> > On Mar 11, 11:52 am, Arturo Magidin <magi...@member.ams.org> wrote:

> Alas:

> > > Lemma: Let R be a commutative ring, let P be a prime ideal, and let m
> > > be a positive integer. Let a and b be elements of R. Suppose that a
> > > lies in P^m but not in P^{m+1} and b lies in P^n but not in P^{n+1};
> > > then ab lies in P^{n+m} but not in P^{n+m+1}.

> is false as stated; it's true in a PID, but false even in Principal
> Ideal Rings (take R = Z/36Z, P=(2), and a=b=2; then a,b are in P-P^2,
> but ab is in P^3 because P^3=P^2). I don't know what happens if P^n+1
> is properly contained in P^n for all n, or if we have a domain.

Also false in Noetherian domains, as I posted elsewhere: R =
k[x^2,x^3], P=(x^2,x^3), a=b=x^3.

I think I can fix the proof; but:

(i) I'm about to go proctor, so I can't do it now; and
(ii) My laptop decided to stop booting up yesterday. I think it's just
the hard drive dying, in which case I hope I can get it back up in
short order, but I may not be able to post until the weekend is over.

--
Arturo Magidin


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leiko  
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 More options Mar 12, 7:51 pm
Newsgroups: sci.math
From: leiko <leikomats...@gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2010 11:51:47 -0800 (PST)
Local: Fri, Mar 12 2010 7:51 pm
Subject: Re: completion
On Mar 12, 10:53 am, Arturo Magidin <magi...@member.ams.org> wrote:

Thank you a lot! I am looking forward to your post then, whenever it
is... I'll think about it some more also meanwhile.

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Arturo Magidin  
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 More options Mar 14, 9:16 pm
Newsgroups: sci.math
From: Arturo Magidin <magi...@member.ams.org>
Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2010 14:16:48 -0700 (PDT)
Local: Sun, Mar 14 2010 9:16 pm
Subject: Re: completion
On Mar 12, 2:51 pm, leiko <leikomats...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Thank you a lot! I am looking forward to your post then, whenever it
> is... I'll think about it some more also meanwhile.

Unfortunately, I can't quite seem to get the argument to work. We can
localize at P so that we are working in a local Noetherian ring and we
are localizing at the maximal ideal (here we are implicitly using that
P is a prime ideal and not just any old ideal, in order to get R to
embed in its localization; this takes care of the Eisenbud
counterexample)

And in fact, as I look at Eisenbud's "Commutative Algebra with a View
Toward Algebraic Geometry", I see why I can't quite get it to work.
It's false!

Specifically, in page 191, it says:

  "In fact, a theorem of Larfeldt and Lech [Larfeldt, T. and C. Lech
(1981). Analytic ramifications and flat couples of local rings. Acta
Math. 146, pp. 201-208, says that if A is any finite-dimensional
algebra over a field k (for example, k[x]/(x^2) ), then there is a
Noetherian local integral domain R with maximal ideal M such that [the
completion of R at M is isomorphic to] A[[x_1,...,x_n]] for some n."

Since A[[x_1,...,x_n]] is not a domain if A has zero divisors (as is
the case in the example given), the completion may very well fail to
be a domain even when R is a Noetherian local integral domain.

Eisenbud also says: "there have been attempts to define a more special
class of rings that would not only be Noetherian, but would also share
other good properties of affine rings", such as the completion with
respect to a maximal ideal having no nilpotent elements. He mentiones
Grothendieck's "excellent rings".

So, that's why I can't get it to work.  Sorry for thinking I could.

--
Arturo Magidin


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leiko  
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 More options Mar 14, 11:01 pm
Newsgroups: sci.math
From: leiko <leikomats...@gmail.com>
Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2010 16:01:16 -0700 (PDT)
Local: Sun, Mar 14 2010 11:01 pm
Subject: Re: completion
On Mar 14, 4:16 pm, Arturo Magidin <magi...@member.ams.org> wrote:

Thank you a lot for thinking about it.
So I did show that if x is not a zero divisor, then its image in the
completion is not a zero divisor either.
I know that this is not enough, since we have the counterexample in
Eisenbud, to conclude that if A is a domain, the completion at any
ideal is also a domain.
But I want to show that the completion at a prime ideal is also a
domain if the initial ring is a domain... Are you saying that this is
not true? That's what I am understanding from what you wrote, but I am
very surprised....

Well, what about the completion of a Noetherian domain at a prime
ideal which is generated by a regular sequence of elements in the
ring...would that be a domain?

Thank you again.


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Arturo Magidin  
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 More options Mar 15, 12:41 am
Newsgroups: sci.math
From: Arturo Magidin <magi...@member.ams.org>
Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2010 17:41:47 -0700 (PDT)
Local: Mon, Mar 15 2010 12:41 am
Subject: Re: completion
On Mar 14, 6:01 pm, leiko <leikomats...@gmail.com> wrote:

I am saying that what Eisenbud says shows that this is not always the
case: pick your favorite finite dimensional algebra over a field that
has nilpotent elements or zero divisors: for example, take k=Q[x]/
(x^2), with Q the rational numbers. The theorem quoted says that there
is a local Noetherian domain R with maximal ideal M such that the
completion of R at M is isomorphic to a ring of power series over k.
Since k has nilpotent elements/zero divisors, so does a ring of power
series over R.

But if M is a maximal ideal of a commutative ring with 1, then it is
also a *prime* ideal. So *there* is an example of a Noetherian
*domain*, R, and a prime ideal M, such that the completion of R at the
prime ideal M is *not* a domain.

So yes: I am saying that it is not always true, even if your initial
domain is noetherian and you complete at a prime.

>  That's what I am understanding from what you wrote, but I am
> very surprised....

> Well, what about the completion of a Noetherian domain at a prime
> ideal which is generated by a regular sequence of elements in the
> ring...would that be a domain?

I think I remember seeing something about this in Nagata's "Local
Rings"; I'll check at the office tomorrow.

--
Arturo Magidin


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leiko  
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 More options Mar 15, 1:47 am
Newsgroups: sci.math
From: leiko <leikomats...@gmail.com>
Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2010 18:47:30 -0700 (PDT)
Local: Mon, Mar 15 2010 1:47 am
Subject: Re: completion
On Mar 14, 7:41 pm, Arturo Magidin <magi...@member.ams.org> wrote:

Thank you!

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Arturo Magidin  
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 More options Mar 15, 7:39 pm
Newsgroups: sci.math
From: Arturo Magidin <magi...@member.ams.org>
Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2010 12:39:55 -0700 (PDT)
Local: Mon, Mar 15 2010 7:39 pm
Subject: Re: completion
On Mar 14, 6:01 pm, leiko <leikomats...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Well, what about the completion of a Noetherian domain at a prime
> ideal which is generated by a regular sequence of elements in the
> ring...would that be a domain?

I think so.

If you localize at the prime ideal P, you get a local Noetherian
domain with maximal ideal (the image of) P. The regular sequence of
elements (x_1,...x_n) that generates P in R will also generate the
localization of P, and will be regular, since the quotient of the
localization R_P/(x_1,..,x_i) is the localization of R/(x_1,...,x_i),
and localizing a domain at a prime ideal does not introduce any zero
divisors.

Now, a local ring R with maximal ideal M of dimension d is regular if
and only if the (R/M) vector space M/M^2 is of dimension d; the
minimal system of generators will be a regular sequence, and it is a
theorem that a regular local ring is a domain; the completion of a
regular local ring is a regular local ring, so you will get that the
localization of the completion is a domain. Since you are localizing
at a prime ideal, you get an embedding from the ring into the
localization, so you can embed the completion in the regular local
domain.

In short: if the dimension of your domain equals the length of your
regular sequence, then "yes": you get a domain when you complete. I
don't remember if regular sequences necessarily imply that your ring
is regular, though.

--
Arturo Magidin


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leiko  
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 More options Mar 16, 8:40 am
Newsgroups: sci.math
From: leiko <leikomats...@gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 01:40:23 -0700 (PDT)
Local: Tues, Mar 16 2010 8:40 am
Subject: Re: completion
On Mar 15, 2:39 pm, Arturo Magidin <magi...@member.ams.org> wrote:

Thank you.
Thm. A2.18 says that a local ring is regular iff its maximal ideal is
generated by a regular sequence. :)

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leiko  
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 More options Mar 16, 9:02 am
Newsgroups: sci.math
From: leiko <leikomats...@gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 02:02:57 -0700 (PDT)
Local: Tues, Mar 16 2010 9:02 am
Subject: Re: completion
On Mar 16, 3:40 am, leiko <leikomats...@gmail.com> wrote:

However, I still couldn't quite figure out my other question, in the
following particular case:
If P is a principal prime ideal generated by a non-zero divisor, is
the infinite intersection /\P^n=0? Do you have any ideas?
Thanks  again so much.

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leiko  
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 More options Mar 16, 3:57 pm
Newsgroups: sci.math
From: leiko <leikomats...@gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 08:57:02 -0700 (PDT)
Local: Tues, Mar 16 2010 3:57 pm
Subject: Re: completion
On Mar 16, 4:02 am, leiko <leikomats...@gmail.com> wrote:

Nope..I realized that's wrong..Nevermind.
Thanks a lot for your help.

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